Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither, and lose both.
-- Benjamin Franklin

Mississippi Abortion Clinic

CNN has an article dealing with the attempts to limit abortion in Mississippi, and the attempts to close the one remaining abortion clinic in that state.

I do not intend to support abortion clinics. I find it repulsive, and it is a difficult moral issue to balance my dislike for abortion with the rights and respect due to pregnant women.

Having said that, I find it intriguing that in juxtaposition with the article above, Mississippi has the highest rate of teen (14-19) births in the country. I would think if your concern were morality, this is a symptom of a wider problem and there would be better ways to attack it rather than the abortion clinic.

For information on teen pregnancy, and much more, see the CDC National Vital Statistics report for births in 2002.

By the way, if you are intrigued as to how the teenage birth rate corresponds to the moral red states vs the immoral, liberal blue states, the following chart might be interesting. The chart shows teen birth rates per 1000, with a national average of 43.

Teenage birth chart

There’s a whole lot of red up there at the top of the chart. The top fifteen states are all “red”, and all but one of those above the national average are. The only southern state below the national average is Virginia, and you can see for yourself how many are in the top 10 or so.

Maybe they should take some of that blue state money and spend it on sex education rather than roads, but I guess that wouldn’t be appropriately “moral” either.

Me, I kind of like the effects of the North Eastern liberal morality better.

If you would like a more detailed discussion of this data, see http://www.itaffectsyou.org/blog/index.php?p=146.

Statistical issues are examined, and analysis of birth rates (which the chart above shows) versus pregnancy rates shows a dramatic correlation. In other words, the birth rates are not higher in the south because of lower abortion rates. There is some interesting statistical analysis buried in the commentary on that page.

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Since you’re into this kind of thing, please check out

Since you’re into this kind of thing, please check out http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/ss/ss5309.pdf

in particular page 17.

There you will discover that in the Blue (ProAbortion)states pregnant women tend to abort their children at a higher rate than in the Red(ProLife) states. In fact the really high rates (>300 per 1000 live births) are blue.

Since New York City women tend to abort 723 of their children for each 1000 they deliver, I would like to see a report nationwide county by county. I theorize that high abortion rates and blue voting would thereby closely correlate.

"Me, I kind of like the effects of the North Eastern liberal morality better."

Can’t say as I agree.

"I do not intend to support abortion clinics. I find it repulsive, and it is a difficult moral issue to balance my dislike for abortion with the rights and respect due to pregnant women."

I would like to see some more discussion on this. You seem to have sidestepped this rather messy pile of crap on your way to your moral high horse. But first try this exercise. First, take your "dislike for abortion" and put it in a mental pot. Now throw in the "rights and respect due to pregnant women." Lastly, accord to children the same rights five minutes before birth as you would five minutes after birth, or more pointedly the rights of your OWN children to a baby whose body has but halfway emerged from mother’s birth canal (since you blue-staters can’t stand up to the abomination of partial birth abortion) and throw them in too. Now grab your philosophical wooden spoon and stir. Generally things begin to clear. If you still feel inclined to fall back on the moral copout above, perhaps you should back away from this issue.

It never fails to amaze and appall me that those who will scream bloody murder at the government’s execution of the most heinous examples of human debris to ever populate the planet will frequently not bat an eye at the wholesale slaughter of millions of innocent children at the hands of their mothers.

Those highbrowed folks who maintain that we are a barbaric country because of the death penalty have it half right. We are a barbaric country. But not because we kill murderers, because we kill our children.

Welcome to this board.

A bit of courtesy would be welcome when you first jump in, but so be it.

I do not, and cannot, contest the statistics you cite. I do not like or approve of abortion, as I believe I stated. My point was not to support that, but to show there were other issues as important as the crusades of the anti-abortion people, issues which if addressed might negate the need for the abortions.

Interestingly enough, when the data for abortion is factored in, there is still a much higher rate of teen pregnancy (as opposed to teen parenting) in the south than in other regions. This should be an indication of a deeper problem.

Do you know that the same state of Mississippi has the highest rate of infant mortality in the country? If you are concerned for the children, shouldn’t you put as much effort into protecting them after they are born as before?

You are indeed correct that the issues of when life begins, and when does abortion become murder, are deep and troubling. When it comes to a situation where both alternatives (abortion vs. teen parenting) are evil, then you have made a bad decision previously that forced that situation. Sex education and birth control should be taught. Sex education so that young people know what they are getting into, and birth control not as a preference over abstinence, but as an alternative if needed.

Perhaps if Mississippi taught and practiced some of that morality that we hear so much about, we might not have to face that decision.

I can see the evil in abortion easily. To say that teen pregnancy, which I agree is undesirable, equates in any sense to abortion, and indeed rises to the level of "evil", seems a bit of a stretch. Please justify this claim.

Happy New Year to you and yours!

First, let’s agree that we have moved beyond the topic of my original post. I posted not in support of abortion, but with the somewhat incredulous observation that a state working strongly to prevent abortion apparently, by some statistics, did less than any other to prevent the immediate predecessor of many abortions: teen pregnancy. In addition, that same state ranked last in infant mortality.

Now, if we are to move to the entirely different subject of whether teen parenting is more or less "evil" than abortion, let’s do so. It is, however, irrelevant to the original post.

Now, what makes teen parenting evil? I suppose it depends on your definition of evil. The social costs of teenage parenting are well documented, and any cursory Google search will find the details: 80% of female teenage parents end up on welfare, their children are subject to a staggeringly greater chance of child abuse, their children are less healthy, and end up less educated than adult parents, and so forth.

You find evil in the termination of a pregnancy, I find evil in suffering needlessly inflicted on the already born, and on those who are too young to function effectively as parents.

One could reasonably argue (though I don’t know if I do) that abortions, especially early in the pregnancy as most are despite your graphic descriptions of partial-birth abortions, eliminate only a potential human life. There is no experience, no ability to function away from the mother, nothing to indicate that this is a human being at this point, or simply a "bud" that could so develop eventually.

Again, I don’t know if I would take this position, but it is a rational argument. There is no doubt, however, that the social effects of teenage parenting affect living, breathing, humans, and that many times these effects affect not one, not two, but at least three generations. Preventable human suffering is the very essence of evil, at least in my opinion.

Having known a girl who was the possible receipient of a child, she being fifteen. It scares me. What can she be feeling and what does she want to do. I don’t think that it is evil for a teen to parent a child. I find it very bad, because when this happens they become poor, the girl who gave the birth starts turning out bad and the child doesn’t get the benefits that well raised children such as i get. She got an abortion. I don’t know if it was the right decision on her part. Put it could have saved her and one unlucky child a hell of a lot of grief.

Sorry for the mispellings and such.



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